At a time when the unity of Ukrainian society is key to victory, the issue of church unification takes on special importance. Today we will look behind the scenes of this process along with the two priests who are at the forefront of the dialogue between Orthodox jurisdictions.
In this interview, we will speak of the urgent need for the unity of Ukrainian Orthodoxy, strategies for unity applied by the Ukrainian Orthodox Church (UOC) and the Orthodox Church of Ukraine (OCU), and why these strategies are currently struggling to producing the desired results. We will also discuss the importance of the participation of the Ecumenical Patriarchate – the Mother Church for Ukrainian Orthodoxy, as an irreplaceable arbiter and catalyst of positive changes.
Our interlocutors – Father Oleksandr Sorokin with the UOC and Father Vitaly Kuzmych with the OCU – are active participants of the Sofia Brotherhood, a unique platform where representatives from both jurisdictions explore ways to understand each other. They will share their experience of running dialogue and their vision of why without the intervention of the Mother Church (Ecumenical Patriarchate), the issue of the unity of Orthodoxy in Ukraine may remain unresolved.
The interview will highlight not only problems, but also expectations and hopes for the future, revealing initiatives “from below” that already today promote dialogue and mutual understanding between Orthodox jurisdictions in Ukraine.
Participants in the dialogue:
Father Oleksandr Sorokin (Ukrainian Orthodox Church)
Father Vitaly Kuzmych (Orthodox Church of Ukraine)
– Fathers, you are both active members of the Sofia Brotherhood, which is engaged in finding ways to achieve this unity. The Sofia Brotherhood is one of the few platforms in Ukraine that has on board representatives from two jurisdictions, the UOC and the OCU. The brotherhood shows that dialogue is possible. Tell us, please, how the idea of the Sofia Brotherhood was conceived?
Fr. Vitaly: It is already a well-known fact that it was a grassroots movement of priests cheering for the fate of Orthodoxy in Ukraine. Among the priests of the UOC there was such a movement – signatories.
These are the priests who initially rallied around the appeal of Father Andriy Pinchuk with his demand for the trial of Patriarch Kirill as a war criminal who supports the dictator Putin.
There were also appeals by grassroot priests to the head of the UOC, Metropolitan Onufriy. And this led to the fact that priests from OCU also picked up the baton. On July 5, 2022, a meeting was held at the Sofia of Kyiv between the clerics from the UOC and OCU. The meeting was initially planned in order to simply chat, drink tea, look into each other’s eyes, maybe ask some questions. But all this spilled into a declaration of understanding.
The second meeting at the Sofia took place on February 16, 2023. So such a low-level movement of priests from both jurisdictions led to the fact that on February 6, 2024, the founding meeting of the Sofia Brotherhood was held – a public organization, which includes the faithful from the UOC and OCU, who are concerned about the further fate of Orthodoxy in Ukraine, and who seek unity of Orthodoxy in Ukraine, understanding, dialogue, and that is what the brotherhood is doing today.
“It is very important to see in the eyes of your opponent, first of all, a brother or sister in Christ”
Father Oleksandr: I would like to add that, yes, we officially started with the movement of signatories, precisely with the appeal from Father Andrii Pinchuk regarding the trial of Patriarch Kirill. But before that, back in March 2022, there was another initiative by UOC priests, which was put forward by Father Anatoliy Slynko of the UOC’s Boryspil Diocese. He later joined the OCU.
Thе initiative was for the Fathers from the UOC to record and publish on their social media a video appeal to Metropolitan Onufriy with a call to condemn the actions of Patriarch Kirill, with whose consent and blessing of Russia’s full-scale military aggression against Ukraine was launched.
I remember recording that video while my house was under enemy fire at my home as I was sheltering in my boiler room. Back then, I said that I demanded that the Ukrainian Orthodox Church break all ties with the Russian Orthodox Church. For this, of course, I got reprimanded in the parish where I served.
Later, Father Andriy Pinchuk called on all those who were willing to sign a letter to the Pentarchy with the demand to condemn Patriarch Kirill, then there were many other appeals, and we signed them all, we did not miss a single letter, a single appeal, we tried to influence this situation “from the bottom up”.
Already then, we had the first meeting at the Sofia of Kyiv, the second, the third, and we realized that we must grow into something bigger: a brotherhood that can and must have a noble influence on the religious situation of Ukraine – specifically on the Orthodox churches, encouraging Association of Orthodox Ukrainians.
– Currently, the dialogue is conducted by local priests and, unfortunately, in the brotherhood, as far as we understand, there is not a single bishop from any jurisdiction – neither from the OCU, nor from the UOC.
Why it’s the case is also a separate question. But it is more interesting that there were statements from both jurisdictions, which remained statements and never led to any positive changes or rapprochement. Since 2022, the has become worse as far as we can see.
What do you think are the recipes for the unity of Orthodoxy in Ukraine? And is it possible to enlist the assistance of the Ecumenical Patriarchate?
Fr. Vitaly: It is very difficult to talk about recipes for unity today, because we ourselves see that the situation is very difficult. And there cannot be any single path of development. But, still, from the experience of the Sofia Brotherhood, at this low level, we can only look from the bottom up. We do not know the situation at the top. But our experience is that of dialogue. It is a positive experience where we simply meet together, communicate, look into each other’s eyes. It is very important to see in the eyes of your opponent, first of all, a brother or sister in Christ. And then the communication is completely different. We are implementing joint useful projects and so on…
Let me remind you that on May 16, we held a seminar on the liturgical language of the Kyivan tradition in Lutsk, where speakers were members of the brotherhood, as well as faculty members with the Volyn Orthodox Theological Academy. The meeting was really interesting and rich. It was possible to see how brothers actively communicate with each other, and sometimes even discuss things.
That is, this ice breaks during such communication, especially when people are part of a joint process.
On September 19, there was a meeting again in Rivne. It was already a regent’s practicum, the Kyiv Church-singing tradition. It was also very interesting to observe the participants who attended that workshop. They communicated with each other and there was no tension at all. Sometimes it seemed that they forgot that they were on “different sides of the barricades” of Ukrainian Orthodoxy. Therefore, our experience is very simple. We need to communicate, we need to sit down at the table, look into each other’s eyes, and communicate, but without any preconditions. In order for the negotiation process between the UOC and OCU to begin, you just need to start communicating.
Also, regarding the Ecumenical Patriarch and participation of the Ecumenical Patriarchate in this process, we hope that in this difficult time, when our country is suffering from aggression, the Mother Church will not leave us. To tackle the enemy, we need to unite. And we believe that we really need the help of the Ecumenical Patriarch in this unification process.
“One side speaks from the position of ‘strength’, the other – from the position of the ‘oppressed’, and everyone sees only their own truth.”
Fr. Oleksandr: Regarding the hierarchs of the UOC and OCU, it seems to me that each of them took their own stance, which is not close to the position of dialogue, to a constructive one. As Father Vitaly says, we do not know what is happening there, but I assume that the beginning of the dialogue is hindered by corporate interests, corporate rhetoric. One side speaks from the position of “strength”, the other – from the position of the “oppressed”, each sees only their own truth. Although it is necessary to pay tribute to the hierarchy of the OCU, which nevertheless voiced its readiness for dialogue “without preconditions”. And that’s not bad.
We know that many of the bishops and priests from both the UOC and OCU support the activities of our brotherhood, seek dialogue between Orthodox Ukrainians, but due to certain reasons, in particular prohibitions from the higher authorities, they cannot speak up.
But the fact that we are supported is very inspiring. When we run our projects, we know that a lot of people are happy about it. Both bishops, priests, and most importantly, ordinary people, the laity. By the way, the laity never hide like that, it is easier for them to openly support the brotherhood. We feel this support, and it inspires us.
In the Sofia Brotherhood there are not only representatives of the OCU and UOC, but also lay people who belong to the Ecumenical Patriarchate.
The Brotherhood looks up with great hope to the Ecumenical Patriarchate, to His Holiness Patriarch Bartholomew, who is a great authority for many Ukrainians. In this difficult situation, he could take on the role of arbitrator to help solve the problem of lack of dialogue and unity. We very much hope that His Holiness will join in solving the issue and that his participation in the reconciliation of Ukrainian Churches will be decisive.
– We know that late this summer, at the invitation of the President of Ukraine, the delegation from the Ecumenical Patriarchate was in Kyiv. It consisted of the same hierarchs who were part of the commission set up by the Synod of the Ecumenical Patriarchate in 2023 on issues of the unity of Ukrainian Orthodoxy.
The Sofia Brotherhood also had a meeting with these hierarchs, representatives from the Ecumenical Patriarchate. What are your impressions of this communication and, perhaps, what are your expectations of what will happen after that meeting, and perhaps what are your predictions?
Fr. Vitaly: The impressions are very positive. We are very grateful to the representatives of the Ecumenical Patriarchate that they met with us. We had a lot of fun talking, although, you know, that hour-long meeting wasn’t enough. There are many questions, many expectations, to which we would like to hear an answer.
“From the conversation it was possible to understand that the Mother Church is looking for ways to reconcile and unite the multi-million Ukrainian flock”
We heard from the representatives of the commission that they did not come to offer any advice or talk about future plans; as Bishop Job said, “We came here to hear you out”. That is, from the conversation it was possible to understand that the Mother Church is looking for ways to reconcile and unite the multi-million Ukrainian flock. Therefore, yes, there are expectations. I repeat again, we are people who are at the bottom, and we cannot directly influence any general processes in the church. We cannot make decisions for hierarchs. But we expect that they will hear us out, that our hierarchs will still start this dialogue process. And the Ecumenical Patriarch, as Father Oleksandr already said, will become such an arbiter who will help us understand and unite all of us into a single Local Church.
“Many priests and believers with the UOC are concerned about the current canonical status of their own Church. People want some certainty”
Fr. Oleksandr: During the meeting with the delegation from the Ecumenical Patriarchate, each of us introduced ourselves and briefed them on ourselves. Everyone shared their personal vision of the situation in which Ukrainian Orthodoxy found itself, the vision of the mission of the Sofia Brotherhood, told about the situation in the parishes, about the expectations that the clergy has, about the mood among the faithful – the guests were very interested as that is what they came for. It was a great honor for us – we felt that we had to convey all the objective information to them.
I personally know that among the UOC clergy, especially the younger ones, there are great expectations from the Ecumenical Patriarch regarding his authoritative influence on the process of dialogue and unity of Ukrainian Churches.
Many priests and believers with the UOC are concerned about the current canonical status of their own Church. People want some certainty – many look towards the Ecumenical Patriarchate as an opportunity to get a clear standardization of canonical status. Everyone understands that now the ROC is completely subordinate to the Kremlin and fulfills all its whims, blesses crimes and serves evil – you just need to run from there. It became a great stress for those who realized it.
Therefore, now the UOC believers, for whom the question of canonicity has always been one of the priorities, feel serious anxiety – they were taught that it is important to be in a canonical church, and now they have this situation… This worries people a lot – they are waiting for a canonical decision that could save them and the UOC from schism.
One of the missions of the Sofia Brotherhood, which we told the delegation of the Ecumenical Patriarchate about, is to destroy myths. These are some kind of “separation walls” built by the warring parties to scare and divide people. These are myths that concern the UOC, OCU, and even Ecumenical Patriarchate, some of which have been spreading for decades.
By the way, at the meeting with the delegation, we were very pleased to hear from the bishops that ahead of the trip to Ukraine, His Holiness Patriarch Bartholomew asked them about the Sofia Brotherhood. It turns out that he had heard about us and was interested in our efforts. It inspired us a lot!
“Without the unification of Orthodoxy, we will not have spiritual independence”
– You see, at the level of priests and at the level of the Sofia Brotherhood, there is a desire for unity. There are even joint research projects, cooperation in the liturgical realm. That is, the two Orthodox jurisdictions can cooperate for the good of believers and enlightenment.
But let’s return to the question of the participation of the Ecumenical Patriarchate in dialogue. The delegation met with the hierarchs of both churches, with the leadership of the UOC and OCU. And I wonder if the UOC and OCU share the opinion that the Ecumenical Patriarchate can become the arbiter that will help in dialogue and real unification of churches. In 2018, the Patriarch has already become the source of unification, and two branches of Orthodoxy in Ukraine, including two bishops from the UOC, joined the united church. However, the separation is still not healed.
In your opinion, do church hierarchs, the top church, in both jurisdictions share the views of the Sofia Brotherhood regarding the role of the Ecumenical Patriarchate in the unification, or are they still skeptical? What are your predictions or guesses, since it is difficult to give an exact answer?
Fr. Vitaliy: I guess we can only hope that our hierarchs are equally rooting for the future fate of Ukrainian Orthodoxy. After all, as Father Oleksandr pointed out, when the Orthodox are at war with each other, Orthodoxy itself suffers from this. People gradually leave the church and stop trusting it. Therefore, dialogue and unification are extremely necessary, and in my opinion, our hierarchs understand this better than we do – without the unification of Orthodoxy, we will not have spiritual independence.
Father Oleksandr: As for our episcopate, we really don’t know what they have in mind. We would very much like to hope that the hierarchs of the UOC and OCU seek the good for the Church and are waiting for the Ecumenical Patriarch’s help in the matter of the unity of Ukrainian Orthodoxy.
If we talk about the UOC, almost everything here depends on Metropolitan Onufriy. It is a well-known fact that the UOC has two wings: one pro-Ukrainian and the other pro-Moscow. We really hope that the pro-Ukrainian forces in the UOC prevail and that Metropolitan Onufriy makes the right decision – to sever all ties with the Moscow Patriarchate, restore Eucharistic communication with the Churches of Constantinople and other Churches, and ask for the canonical status to be normalized.
“Just get together, sing ‘Heavenly King’ and start talking”
Fr. Oleksandr: You just need to come and start talking – without prerequisites, without requirements, just start talking. We in the Sofia Brotherhood know how it is – not everything went smoothly for us either. During meetings, some sharp questions were raised, there were tense moments and pauses. But that’s normal! This is a part of life, a sign of free human communication, where everyone can express their opinion and explain their position.
We in the brotherhood began to look for what unites us, and gradually everything began to be resolved. Joint solutions were developed, a way out of difficult situations was found. Just pull yourself together, sing “Heavenly King” and start talking.
– You are absolutely right, but despite all the statements coming from the Churches, none of the two Churches has set up a commission for dialogue. It might have been possible to do without it, but unfortunately no real steps have been taken from any jurisdiction. Some say: “Change this or that in yourself”, others say: “We are ready to communicate without preconditions”, but nothing has moved. Perhaps a simple meeting over a cup of tea or coffee in the thousand-year-old Sofia of Kyiv would help us realize that we are all children of one God, the Heavenly Father. It would perhaps bring harmony at least in the simplest things.
In addition, President Volodymyr Zelensky is actively engaged in the issue of achieving unity of Orthodoxy. The delegation of the Ecumenical Patriarchate met with President Zelensky recently. At a meeting with hierarchs, Volodymyr Zelensky stated that Ukrainian Orthodoxy needs the status of a patriarchate. But everyone who has a deeper understanding of church issues understands that the “patriarchate” is not a tool, but a consequence of the unity of Ukrainian Orthodoxy.
The President of Ukraine also voiced his expectations for drawing up a road map for Ukrainian Orthodoxy by the Ecumenical Patriarchate. The Synod of the Ecumenical Patriarchate will soon be held, where the Ukraine issue will likely be discussed.
What do you expect from these decisions of the Synod? Your opinion will be important to our readers.
Father Vitaly: As for the decisions of the Synod, it is difficult to predict which ones will be adopted. But we trust the Mother Church, which has a 2,000-year history and experience in how this can be done. As ordinary priests and laity, we do everything we can to show that dialogue is possible, that it is possible to cooperate rather than fight. At the brotherhood level, we demonstrate this. And how the Mother Church decides, frankly speaking, we do not know.
“I personally know priests of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church who already secretly commemorate the Ecumenical Patriarch during the proscomidia as their Patriarch”
Father Oleksandr: We trust the centuries-old experience and authority of the Ecumenical Patriarchate and its Synod, and we are sure that a wise and correct decision will be made. Our main goal at the meeting with the delegation was to convey reliable information about the situation “on the ground” – the mood among the clergy and believers, so that decisions could be made with this background in mind.
By the way, I personally know UOC priests who already secretly commemorate the Ecumenical Patriarch during the proscomidia as their Patriarch.
– So it would be possible to start with communion, Unity in the Eucharistic chalice without administrative unity. And what would allow temporary coexistence as two administrative verticals, which later have the prerequisites to merge into one jurisdiction, so that everyone stays with what they came with.
Perhaps this approach will become a transitional stage for Ukrainian Orthodoxy: to be united in Christ through communion, and then to solve administrative issues.
Fr. Vitaly: You know, it probably won’t be such big news, but communication between the priests of the OCU and UOC at the level of brotherhood is possible. It is simply not disclosed for obvious reasons, so that no sanctions are imposed on priests who may simply suffer. At the level of brotherhood, there is dialogue, there is communication, there is recognition of the priesthood of both the UOC and OCU. That is why we have already evolved in this matter, that is, the dialogue is yielding results. And, of course, it is not open, this communication is not open, but I am sure that as soon as it becomes possible, believe me, brothers will begin to publicly share communion together.
“Yes, restoring the Eucharistic communication of the UOC with the Mother Church is the first thing that the UOC should do”
Fr. Oleksandr: We are sure that the renewed Eucharistic communication with the Ecumenical Patriarchate will heal the Ukrainian Orthodox Church, will give them the grace to “turn away from evil and create good” (Ps. 33).
In our Sofia brotherhood, we recognize each other’s priesthood, grace, and sacraments.
Fr. Vitaly: I’d like to support Father Oleksandr and add: it is really very important to renew the Eucharistic connection of the UOC with the Universal Mother Church. We have already talked about it, the priests jokingly said to each other that as soon as the priests understand that they will not be banned literally on the second or third day, the brothers will gather and officially celebrate the common liturgy together. Because they will understand that there will be no threat of the ban. Therefore, this is a very important step and, by the way, the priests-signatories requested this step from Metropolitan Onufriy while still being signatories.
– Of course, that is, probably this unity of the UOC with the Ecumenical Patriarchate, the Mother Church, will already be one of those testimonies that the Ukrainian Orthodox Church has really severed ties with Moscow.
I think that Moscow will not forgive this and thus help the UOC withdraw from the ROC after all.
Fr. Oleksandr: Yes, this would help the UOC clergy, this would save them in the current absurd situation.
It’s absurd in the sense that the State Service of Ukraine for Ethnopolitics and Freedom of Conscience simply begs the leadership of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church to do at least something, to publish at least some statement condemning the policy of the Russian Orthodox Church and Patriarch Kirill, so that the government has grounds to distance itself from them. “Hey, UOC, finally do a Christian act!” That is, for me it is ridiculous. The government body demands that they act in line with their conscience, the Gospel, and the Church resists. This is simply absurd.
– Reading the statements of, say, Metropolitan Feodosiy of the UOC and Antoniy Pakanych, despite the fact that it is said that there is oppression of the church, they write that after that law was adopted, they will continue to pray, that no one will be able to do anything about it. So there are some ambiguities: if there was oppression, you would not be able to pray or somehow perform your prayers, right? So there is such ambiguity here.
There is a certain mood to sit it out until the end and not change anything, and this way you can’t build a dialogue.
Fr. Oleksandr: Many priests and believers have the impression that Metropolitan Feodosiy, Metropolitan Antoniy Pakanych, and Metropolitan Luka of Zaporizhzhia are the Kremlin’s people. They are affiliated with the Kremlin and openly work for them. That they are diligently working in line with the Kremlin guidebook in order to bring the church situation in Ukraine to a boiling point, so that later they could cry oppression! And then hire some Bob Amsterdam of whatever, who will be taking their money and telling the whole of America about the “oppression” of Christians in Ukraine, so that America freezes military aid to Ukraine. So for them, the worse, the better! This is their main principle.
Therefore, these odious individuals are conscious traitors, conscious enemies of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church in the first place.
Fr. Vitaly: Exactly. And I would like to add regarding the law, why do they behave like this? They understand very well that the law does not particularly affect them. These problems will begin with ordinary parishioners and parish priests. And they, as they ruled, will continue to rule and shout about oppression sitting in their cozy cells.
Fr. Oleksandr: Then, when they are kicked out of Ukraine or exchanged for POWs, they will get themselves some nice spot somewhere in the Kaluga diocese in Russia, with a full board and a suitcase of money. They have calculated everything.
It’s just a shame for ordinary people who listen to them. And they know how to say it well! Apart from Metropolitan Luka, who often “gets dirty” because a person is very impulsive and does not know how to control his emotions. With his actions, he exposes others.
– Yes, see, we are talking about the clergy, bishops, and priests. But what is the role of believers in this dialogue, in achieving the unity of Orthodoxy in Ukraine? In parishes, do you see any initiatives at the local level to bring closer communities, parishioners of the OCU and UOC?
Are there any appeals, or perhaps do parishioners reach out to you and say something? What do the parishioners say about the role of the Ecumenical Patriarch in this process, the process of unification of churches? What are your thoughts on this?
Fr. Oleksandr: It is difficult for me personally to answer this question, because I have not been in a parish for a long time. I love these people very much and they love me, but the situation is such that we do not have very frank conversations with them. Almost all parishioners know that I am a member of the Sofia Brotherhood, whoever wants to follow my page on Facebook, where I write everything I think.
In the church during sermons, I tell people about Christ, about the need to always live and act according to the Gospel, about openness, about the need for dialogue between people.
And already in private conversations, if someone asks me, then I say more frankly what I think.
Now the situation in the parish is more or less calm, no one causes problems to people, nothing is taken away and they are very grateful for that. And this is already progress, because where there is no confrontation, dialogue and understanding are already possible.
Fr. Vitaly: Unfortunately, we have not yet succeeded in building a dialogue between the parishes of the OCU and the Ukrainian Orthodox Church at the local level, but in personal communication, I and my parishioners are always open to fraternal communication.
A little over a year ago, our parish joined the Orthodox Church of Ukraine.
I’d like to say that this decision matured, it took time, but it was 100% the decision of the entire community. That is, all parishioners fully supported the idea of uniting with the Orthodox Church of Ukraine. Therefore, when we hear about some conflict situations around a certain temple or if we hear about some misunderstandings in communities, this, of course, hurts us, because Ukrainians have become hostages of those narratives over the years of propaganda spreading the ideas of the Russian world. We understand from our own experience that it is not so easy to remove the veil of delusion and mind fog, therefore we await our brothers and sisters with love and patience.
– That is, we cannot do without the Mother Church, without a road map to unity.
Fr. Oleksandr: Yes, it is necessary, because Mother Church is older, wiser, more experienced, and not as emotional as its two daughters.
– We hope that in the near future there will be some changes, important decisions that will help both Churches sit down for these negotiations on unity and reconciliation, so that some changes take place in each other’s views, so that the church hierarchies see each other as Orthodox Christians, without clichés and stereotypes. And we will pray for the unity of Ukrainian Orthodoxy to be restored.
